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NMArch
Advanced Member

110 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2006 :  12:22:10  Show Profile
In the past on the old discussion board there was some exchange about the prospects of a new silicone colon tube. I have one of the first OHN silicone colon tubes, size 32 fr. and I applaud the effort but don't use it nearly as much as a larger 36 fr. red rubber tube because it isn't as easy to properly insert. The silicone tube is just a bit too "soft" and small to handle like the slightly larger one I prefer. I have tried most of the available french scale sized tubes over the years and have settled upon the 36 fr. as the best handling with the best ratio of wall thickness/durometer strength versus tube diameter. Silicone would have its own set of rules as it is by it's very nature a bit softer (durometer strength) than the red rubber.

I would much prefer to use only silicone tubes rather than the red rubber type but I have problems with the silicone tube flexing back upon itself and not clearing the rectum/sigmoid flexture. I suspect this happens to many people whether they realize it or not as you often can't feel where the softer tube is. I believe that a larger diameter silicone tube with an appropriate wall thickness would alleviate the problem. It appears that the present silicone tubes are made from an existing production silicone tubing with a molded tip added of matching material. I can only imagine what the development costs might be but I wonder if there are others interested in exploring the possibilities a new, improved tube. I would welcome some dialog with intersted parties at OHN as well as other members of this discussion board.

If you use a colon tube what are your observations? What was involved in developing the present OHN silicone tube? What sizes of silicone tubing are currently in production that prototypes might be developed from?
Thanks,
Chris

n/a
deleted

643 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2006 :  13:18:38  Show Profile
Thank you Chris for the good post. I will pass this on to Kristina, and I'm sure you will get replies from others also.
I'm not all that experienced with colon tubes. I'm too much of a wimp! I do have the silicone colon tube, but I'm not very good at putting it in very far. I still like it, because I can still put it in futher than what a nozzle can do.
Salute! (To your health)
Lisa
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Kristina
Administrator

408 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2006 :  20:27:03  Show Profile
Chris,

Thanks for the appreciations. It is always great to have someone notice that you are doing a good job.

Silicone is a much healthier product to use in a colon tube than rubber is. We are looking to phase out rubber colon tubes completely. Due to the great expense in creating the mold for the silicone colon tube, we haven't moved forward on manufacturing molds other than the 32 fr. mold that we own. I, too, would love to hear from everyone regarding their experiences with the silicone colon tube, about their colon tube preferences, both fr. and length.

In good health,
Kristina Amelong, CNC,CT
Optimal Health Network
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rogers734
Advanced Member

103 Posts

Posted - 04/29/2006 :  12:13:49  Show Profile
I use a silicon colon tube that I purchased from OHN, it is indeed softer than the rubber tube that I also purchased there. I do also have a problem with inserting the silicone tube as it tends to double over on itself at various stages of insertion, sometimes in the rectum and sometimes in the sigmoid colon. Hard to tell at times on insertion but when withdrawing the tube it will flip/jump which is easily felt. When I insert the tube I will have flow going and slowly insert alittle then withdraw a small distance then insert some more, if I feel restance I again withdraw the tube again and then insert some more again. I've found that this works quite well with the silicone tube, also use pleanty of lube.

Good health to all
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NMArch
Advanced Member

110 Posts

Posted - 04/29/2006 :  16:21:38  Show Profile
Lisa, Kristina, and rogers734,
Thanks for the replies and insights, Kristina, I should really express my appreciation for all that you do with OHN and this board, you're amazing from what I've learned about you. I'm glad that you're interested in having feedback from other colon tube user's and I hope people will share what they've learned. I can't imagine another place where the finer points about colon tubes could be discussed in earnest! Lisa, no one that owns a colon tube is a wimp...

Over the years I've come to prefer using colon tubes over any other nozzle because they are comfortable and have the ability to facilitate so much more. Like most things I've often imagined ways to improve them and Kristina's choice of silicone is the most promising direction, I'm convinced that scaling up the tube in overall dimension would lead toward the perfect colon tube. If rogers734 has experienced the same problems with the present tube that I have, it's likely other's have as well. This isn't meant to be a criticism as much as constructive dialog that hopefully will lead to a better tube. Like Kristina points out, silicone is the ideal material and if I could achieve better insertion results with the present tube I would retire the other tubes I presently own. I would like to advance this dialog about specifications of what the "perfect" tube might look like in a future post, If others have ideas or observations please share them.
Chris
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coffee_user
Advanced Member

69 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2006 :  15:45:36  Show Profile
I've a couple of red rubber colon tubes made by Bard, that are rather flexible in my opinion. In the past I've had other brands that were much stiffer that I didn't care for. These hae an eye of the side and on the tip.

I've two sizes, an FR30 and an FR32. The FR30 has doubled back on occassion, but I've not had that problem with the FR32.

I also have several latex Foley catheters, FR30, (eyes on the sides, pointed tip) that work wonderfully, but are only 15 or so inches long.

I can't imagine that a silicone tube would be more flexible than my Bard tubes. Sounds like maybe a road test is in order <g>.
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NMArch
Advanced Member

110 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2006 :  10:07:31  Show Profile
Coffee user,
Road test huh? What is this? "Tube & Crack Magazine"? LOL...

Puns aside, I have a Bard 28 fr tube that I've had for twenty years and until the past five years or so when I discovered that other sizes were available through the internet it was the only one I had. I agree that it is very flexible but it does handle differently than the silicone does. After using a larger tube, 36 fr. my observations are that the larger diameter tubes are likely safer than the narrow ones although you are a bit more aware of them.

As for silicone versus rubber, the silicone tube would have to be a bit thicker walled than rubber to approximate the same degree of flexibility as the silicone is softer than rubber. I measured the silicone tube (32 fr.) and it measures between 3/8" and 13/32". The 36 fr rubber tube measures just 7/16". these are very minor differences in tube diameter. It's my thinking that it isn't the diameter that's so critical as the general character of a given length of tubing. If you were to design another silicone tube from scatch you begin with the ideal interior diameter. I think this should be 5/16" and no less. I'm guessing that a wall thickness of 3/32" would be the minimum and it might even need to be thicker to avoid being too flexible. At 3/32" with an interior diameter of 5/16" you end up with a 1/2" diameter tube.

In studying the OHN silicone tube it appears that a length of manufactured silicone tubing was utilized and a tip molded on one end. I don't know what other tube dimensions are being produced so I can't speculate about what the options are for developing another tube. Perhaps Kristina could enlighten us with her experiences and challenges producing the tube OHN sells presently.
Best to all,
Chris
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Switchablesusie
Advanced Member

273 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2006 :  12:06:32  Show Profile
My favorite colon tubes are the really old red rubber ones, 54" long, that went up to 48 Fr. We have several tubes in 44 and 48 Fr sizes, and you really do feel them inside you, especially, the 48 Fr. My husband and I can easily feel exactly where the ends of the tubes are, palpate them, and massage and guide them all the way through the colon without them folding back on themselves. As colonic tubes get thicker, the outer diameter and wall thickness as well as the stiffness increases, which we both like, and find it helps tremendously in passing the tube very far inside.

I would be interested in silicone tubes of the same size (diameter and length).
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coffee_user
Advanced Member

69 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2006 :  15:48:25  Show Profile
Vrrooom!!

After posting I looked at the tube in question and I now understand.

It appears to be similar to what we used ages ago for short flexible connections to pneumatic equipment. That stuff was indeed extremely flexible and resilient. I even used a length of it for a dog lead.
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NMArch
Advanced Member

110 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2006 :  17:51:46  Show Profile
Switchablesusie,
Thanks for the reply. I've never actually seen a tube that size and I'm curious about what the specific interior and exterior tube diameters are especially wall thickness of those 48fr & 44fr tubes? The 36 fr tube I prefer at present is a 50" long tube and I mentioned previously that I believe the larger tubes are likely safer than the smaller ones so I'm simply interested in the prospects of replicating a worthwhile, larger silicone colon tube. Thanks for expressing your interest.
Chris

PS: I've also appreciated your commentaries in previous postings to this forum for the apparent knowledge and intelligence behind them.
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Switchablesusie
Advanced Member

273 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2006 :  19:53:15  Show Profile
While I am not 100% positive, but close to it, the French size is the circumference of the tube in millimeters. If you divide the French size by 3.14 or 22/7 (pi), you will get the diameter of the tube in millimeters. So, a 48 French tube will be 15.3 mm in diameter. The old large ones I have were made in England. The 48 Fr tubes made today and available on some sites are not the same as the old ones. The new ones have a thinner wall thicknesss and the rubber itself is more flexible (a different composition than the old rubber) which makes the tube too flexible, and I don't like them at all. A 48 Fr silicone tube with some rigidity would be appreciated. A soft tube will fold over on itself (and you may think you are getting it far inside, but you're not), while a stiffer tube, especially if you are normal or thinner weight can easily be felt and manipulated and massaged around the entire colon. The 50 inch tubes are long enough to make it all the way around because the colon in situ is about 90-120 cm long. Descriptions of the colon being 5-6 feet long is really not correct, because it is only that long when it is taken out of the cadaver and stretched out on a table like a slinky (the old toy spring). A gastroenterologist doing a colonoscopy, will tell you that the anus to cecum is usually 90-120 cm (3-4 feet maximum).
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NMArch
Advanced Member

110 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  09:43:37  Show Profile
Switchablesusie,
Thanks for the insight. It sounds like we likely want the same thing in silicone. Your explanation of the french scale seems to check out too, thanks! From my experiences I can see you know what you're talking about although I haven't seen one of those older tubes. The reason I like the 36 fr tube I have over others is that it is tolerably stiff for making deeper insertions although not what you're describing in the older tubes you have. It seems that the new tubes all have the same wall thickness and as they get larger they become more flimsy and prone to collapsing and folding. I'll do an internet search of silicone tubing and see what I can learn about material choices if any. I hope anyone interested will express their interest to encourage or support this endeavor... thanks!
Chris
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RichE
New Member

8 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  12:39:11  Show Profile
I have been using a 50", 48Fr for years. Yes you do feel it inside but I don't have any problem with it bending back. I think it is safer than the small diameter tubes. And I would like to see on that size in silicon.

RAE
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n/a
deleted

1 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  13:44:57  Show Profile
I had 3 different sizes of the old red tubes which I tried to use for over a year without ever getting past the old 10-12 inch barrier which a lot of people seem to have a problem with. I bought one of the silicone tubes and used it successfully the first time. Then while I was buying some other equipment I bought a new silicone tube. I tried to use the new tube a few times and I was back to the 10 inch problem again. I examined both tubes carefully and discovered the old tube had a tip that was bent a little. It wasn't put together quite right. It was bent about 20 degrees which was apparently allowing me to get pass the sigmoid area that I hadn't ever been able to do before.Perhaps , whoever is designing the tube might consider putting a slightly bent tip on a new tube. It worked for me!
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NMArch
Advanced Member

110 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  16:31:44  Show Profile
Well, I've been doing my homework today as far as researching silicone tubing choices and I've got some sample material on it's way already. I'll have Dow Corning medical grade silicone tube samples in two sizes, the first being a 12.8 mm OD (outside diameter) tube with 3/32" wall thickness and another that is 14 mm OD with 1/8" wall thickness , both with 5/16" IDs (interior diameter). These tubes translate into french scale 40 and 44 respectively. I've also discovered that there are three different silicone elastomer durometer strengths available in a given tube size which means that an ideal base tube material should be available. I also ordered samples of Dow Corning "Silastic" liquid silicone material in a couple different durometer strengths for forming the closed ends of the tube. At this point I'm simply trying to find out if the desirable tube characteristics exist and what they specifically are. I had no luck finding a tube that approximated the 48 fr size some expressed interest in. The next tubing size larger than those described above measures 3/4" OD and would translate into a 60 fr and that isn't something I am intersted in considering.

I should also state that I am not interested in producing these tubes, only interested in prototyping a more desireable one and I am approaching this as a "design by consensus" exercise and that is why I want opinions and observations from other's experience like those in previous posts. If my findings are what I hope for and others are also interested I would hope that Kristina and OHN consider making this tube. Manufacturing colon tubes isn't my line of work, I just like to design better mouse traps...

Comments are appreciated and anyone sincerely interested is welcome to email me via my profile page.
Thanks to all,
Chris
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Billy The Kid
Advanced Member

181 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  22:01:48  Show Profile
This may not be the best place for this post, but I can't find
any other appropriate place.
OHN sells an " Implant syringe with colon tube ". 19.99. I purchased one some time back and here is what I have done with it in order to facilitate the insertion of a Colon Tube higher up into the Colon. First, I removed the colon tube from the unit and use the Implant
syringe by itself. Second, I fill the syringe with a couple ounces
or so of KY Jelly mixed with a little bit of warm water. The tip of
the syringe is about 2 inches just long enough to insert into the
rectum. Using the "Plunger" I am able to load the KY Jelly well into
the Rectum. Whether or not it reaches the bend in the Sigmoid or not
I don't know. If not, it comes pretty close.
I have found that doing this prior to inserting my regular silicone
colon tube has made or seems to have made it much easier to get around the bend without the tube bending back on itself.
I only use the colon tube when I take a Coffee Enema which is not
to frequently so I can't say this is a "sure fire cure" for the
insertion problem with which we all seem to have some difficulty, but I have had sucess with it and am passing it on for whatever benefit someone can derive.
Regards,
Billy The Kid
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